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Islam and the art of wayang kulit, or shadow puppetry, have co-existed in Malaysia for centuries but in 1990 a new generation of political Islamists, influenced by the theology of Wahhabism, outlawed the tradition in its home state of Kelantan. Encounter travels to Kelantan to watch an illegal ritual performance of wayang kulit and to explore how the pluralist history of Islam in the region, embodied in this art form, has been challenged by global developments. But do the results of Malysia's recent elections suggest the influence of Wahhabism is now on the wane? And, paradoxically, could the successes of the Islamic Party, PAS, be a good sign for democracy and religious freedom in the country?

Untie the rope and hop aboard Encounter when we sail off into the open ocean. Many religious traditions recognise the desert as a place for spiritual growth, so if the red earth is replaced with blue water that stretches to the horizon, what secrets are whispered to sailors? In this program we find out what its like to be stuck on a container ship for months on end; or caught in a terrifying storm mid-ocean as a refugee; or faced with death while on active duty on a Navy ship. We talk to Christians, Muslims and a Buddhist about the vastness of the ocean, loneliness, freedom and death. Watch a short film on Seafarers. Download a short film on Seafarers. TRANSCRIPT: Kerry Stewart: Hello, Im Kerry Stewart, and welcome to a seafaring edition of Encounter, which Ive called `God of the Deep. SAILING SFX Ian Wallace: Cast off. Kerry Stewart: Cast off. Ian: OK, we can start sailing. Kerry Stewart: Most people in Australia have experiences on boats while in a harbour or on rivers, but whats it like to spend months at a time communing with the vastness of the open ocean? Many religious traditions recognise the desert as a place for spiritual growth, so what if the red earth is replaced with blue water that stretches to the horizon? While in the middle of the ocean, what secrets are whispered to sailors? Garry Lock: I remember standing on the stern of one of our ships sailing around the Great Australian Bight, and watching an albatross that had been following the ship for days, and I was just standing out the back there with our man overboard watch guy, and looking out over the back of the ship and watching the wake go away from the ship, which is kind of mesmerising, and the words in Genesis Chapter 1 became real to me, you know, the whole concept of the chaos of the deep and the spirit of God hovering over the deep. And I looked at that albatross and I looked at the vastness of the ocean where you couldnt see any land at all, and I thought all of a sudden that became real, in a real way, not just `This is an intellectual exercise. For me it was real, it was a spiritual experience. And I looked at the sea differently from then on. So I like that image and I call it The God of the Deep, and that for me has been really important to my spiritual development over the years. Mari Rhydwen: When we went away on the boat, I was at a stage in my Buddhist practice where Id been doing it for a long time and Id been very committed for a long time, but doubts arise in any situation and I was feeling some doubts and I didnt know quite what to do, where to go with it, and I just thought, Well, when Im going away on the boat, I just wont worry about it; Im just going to go on the boat. And what I became aware of, the longer I was on the boat, and for a while I didnt do any sort of formal practice really, I didnt set out to do sitting meditation on the boat because I spent every night doing it. I mean when youre on watch at sea, what do you do? You cant read, you cant listen to the radio because you havent got enough power, basically you havent got anything to do except be alert, keep an eye out for anything on the water, changes in the wind, ships on the horizon, and this is no different from meditation practice. I think its the nearest for people who live in the developed, modern world come to a very elemental way of living there. Youre totally at the mercy of the elements, I mean the sea is what it is, you have to watch the weather, you have to watch the tides, but you have no control over them, you just have to fit in with the world, rather than expecting the world to fit in with you, and you can do what you can to control things in the sense of looking after your little boat. Apart from that theres no control and all you can do is surrender yourself to the world. Ian Wallace: Its a step into a space inside me that I dont know too much about, but its to do letting go of the land and hopping into a space of fear in a way, or on the edge of fear, of the unknown. But that all combines into a wonderful feeling of freedom I suppose. Thats a spiritual journey for me. And its involved very much in the here and now of nature and knowing how to survive in a natural environment, be it this one of wind and weather and rain and the unknown and mighty powerful elements of nature which all give me a spiritual feeling, yes. A feeling of being alive and real. Kerry Stewart: Well hear some more from historic boat racer Ian Wallace, cruising yachtie Mari Rhydwen, and Naval Fleet Command Chaplain, Gary Lock a little later. This week were going to find out what its like to be on watch all night in the middle of the Indian Ocean, or caught in a terrifying storm on a small boat, as a refugee, or faced with death while on active duty on a Navy ship. But first were heading to Port Botany, where container ships and oil tankers are constantly docking. Internationally there are about 1.2 million seafarers, and many of those are merchant seamen, working long hours in confined conditions, on board ships for months on end, away from family and friends. Historically, these working men have been abused by their employers, so in the mid-19th century Christian groups, like the Mission to Seafarers, were founded to tend to sailors welfare. Their working conditions have improved over the last 50 years, but modern advances in the maritime industry have meant they face new challenges at sea, and in port. Tomasito S. Ruben: I am Tomasito S. Ruben, and Dominador Roque. We are seamen from the Philippines working on a German container vessel. We are already on the Australian waters since last night. We come in only this morning at 3 oclock in the morning. Dominador Roque: And now we are here at the Seamens Club, to call our families and also unwind ourselves Tomasito S. Ruben: Thats right. So people from the Seamens Club, they take us downtown on the bus. Kerry Stewart: On average, how long do you spend in port? Tomasito S. Ruben: We are grateful if we stay 16 hours, at least we have some four hours on shore if there is not too much job. Dominador Roque: Like here, we have the transportation which really matters for us. Its very difficult to move from ship to the city, and the port is very strict. Kerry Stewart: Is there more security now than there used to be? Tomasito S. Ruben: Yes, since this September 11 the security become very strict. Ian Porter: Hello, my name is Ian Porter, Im the principal Chaplain of the Mission to Seafarers in Sydney. The Mission to Seafarers is a mission arm of the Anglican church worldwide, but in the Anglican church of Australia, and has been active since the 1800s, and it seeks to present the gospel of Jesus Christ to seafarers in word and deed. And a big component of what we do is also in terms of welfare issues, of seeking justice and good conditions and pastoral care for seafarers who come to us from all over the world, and from all sorts of different backgrounds. Just to give you an idea of the number of people that we minister to here in Sydney, each year its about 12,000 to 13,000 seafarers come into the Mission, and in a recent week, just a seven-day window, we ministered to seafarers from China, Croatia, Germany, Greece, India, Indonesia, Japan, Lithuania, Myanmar which is the former Burma, the Netherlands, Oman, Papua-New Guinea, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Russia, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Tonga, the Ukraine and Vietnam. Kerry Stewart: Many of these people that youve just mentioned I imagine arent Christians, so you minister to them as well? Ian Porter: Yes, we dont discriminate between those who are Christian and those who arent. We see all people as being able to benefit from a blessing of Christian ministry. Some of the benefits people would be rather foolish to do without, such as the free transport to and from Port Botany and the Sydney ports into the city, free internet service and other things enabling them to contact people at home at minimal expense. The only organisations who really do minister to seafarers are from a Christian base. Its not only the Mission to Seafarers, but theres the Seamens Christian Friends Society, the Apostleship of the Sea, and other organisations. But theres none really that come from another religious basis. Kerry Stewart: Are you religious? Are you Christian? Dominador Roque: Basically, yes. Tomasito S. Ruben: Yes, I am religious. And every day I always call Jesus to be on my side. Kerry Stewart: Are there any facilities on the ship for your practising of your religion? Dominador Roque: No. Only by your own faith. Thats why we used to come to the Seamens Centre sometimes if you want to attend Mass. Kerry Stewart: Now this centre is run by Anglicans, are you Anglicans? Tomasito: Roman Catholics. Kerry Stewart: So does it make a difference, coming here? Tomasito: No, there is no difference, there is only one God above all, its no difference at all. Kerry Stewart: And when you go on to the ships and there may be say Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists on those ships, do you feel comfortable in telling them about the gospel? Ian Porter: It depends on the environment. Some Muslims and Hindus are quite interested to find out about Christian things, others not at all. And we have to respond to that. We dont seek to get into any slanging match or anything like that with them, but if theyre happy to discuss Christian things, then we are too. I suppose even if they dont perhaps like what we say, theres the indisputable thing of what we do. And in that Jesus said that his disciples would be known for their love, then we want that to happen as well. Kerry Stewart: How long are you at sea in one stretch? Tomasito S. Ruben: Yes, we have different contracts. For me as an officer I have a six months contract. Dominador Roque: Eight months contract. Its quite long for us, but its the only way we can make a substantial support for our family. Kerry Stewart: Why did you choose to go to the sea? Was it just to provide for your families, or did you have an attraction to being a seaman? Tomasito S. Ruben: For us, we were attracted to this dollar currency, we call it green money, because you see if you compare the salary working in the Philippines from working on a foreign vessel, its by far behind, yes. Dominador Roque: Yes, thats right, and life is difficult, yes, but its more difficult on the part of our wife who is stay behind or looking for a child. So I always call my wife, to ask her what is the problem at home, because, as you say, we are always away from them. Tomasito S. Ruben: I was able to send my nephews and sons to a good school because of these seafaring jobs. Im very happy, although a little bit more sacrifice, but its quite good to my family. Kerry Stewart: What are some of the major problems that seafarers face today? Ian Porter: Probably the same ones as theyve faced for a long time, some problems have diminished, particularly in Australia, ship safety is far greater than it ever was, and conditions are much better. When containerisation came in, it made a very big impact on the shipping industry, turnaround times were increased. It has also I think become more commercial, and there are times when the seafarers are seen much more as a resource rather than human beings, and in many ways the seafarers are a forgotten component, albeit vital component, of the shipping industry. But one of the biggest things that seafarers have to cope with I think is absence from family and friends. We had a tragic instance last year where a seafarer had come to the end of his nine month contract and decided to extend it for an extra three months, because the money was to go for some house extensions. He had a little daughter who at that stage was three years old, and died fairly suddenly of dengue fever. And he hadnt seen her for a year. And his return home may not have changed her catching the fever and perhaps dying, but it would have meant that he would have seen her and the only memento that he had of her with him was a clip on his mobile phone, which was taken on her 2nd birthday showing her dancing, and she finished up with the words, looking at the camera saying `Daddy. It was just so terrible that this guy whos only a young fellow, had made that decision to stay there, and really I suppose his daughter died without really knowing him. Sometimes weve had to actually say to people `Do you think youre really doing the right thing? Is it worth it? and thats only for them to decide. BELL SONG: What shall we do with a drunken sailor? Kerry Stewart: Seafarers historically have had a pretty wild reputation when they come into port, drinking and other things go on. I can imagine being out at sea you would be working a lot and only men on the vessel and I imagine when you come into port theres temptation. So how do you deal with that? Tomasito S. Ruben: Yes, thats right. Theres a lot of temptation especially in Third World countries where there is a lot of prostitution. But we keep away on this. Put in mind the person, difficulties in the Philippines, so we try to save our money and of course this sickness that is coming now the AIDS, because for us seamen, before joining the vessel we have to undergo a medical examination. Without passing this one, then we lost the job. Kerry Stewart: And does your faith help you to resist the temptations? Tomasito S. Ruben: Yes, very strong. Faith moves mountains, yes. So it really helps a lot when you always put Jesus ahead of you in all the things you do. It really drives you to a correct way. Ian Wallace: Were free. Kerry Stewart: Were free now from the working port, and on a sailboat headed for the horizon with our captain, Ian. Zen Buddhist teacher, Mari Rhydwen, and her husband Allen, made the ocean their home when they sailed out of Fremantle, skirted the coast of Western Australia to Darwin, and when the weather allowed, continued north to Asia and then west to Africa. It took them three years to sail to Africa and back, so did they consider the boat as their home? Mari Rhydwen: Well the boat that we went on was a 43-foot Mauritius ketch, and it rather depends who you are, whether you think that sounds big or whether it sounds small. A 43-foot but a heavily made, home made, slow, stiff boat. And quite a comfortable amount of space, although if you try to live on anything like that amount of space on land, youd feel as if you were totally cramped you know, but on a boat, thats as much as you want because you want to be manageable, and also because you dont think of the boat as your home. Your home is so much bigger than that. Your home extends to the horizon all around. Ian Wallace: Just got to wait for the wind now. Its a very gentle day, today. Mari Rhydwen: For a start, theres the fact that the environment is so clearly what we are part of. I think one of the things that struck me so clearly was that we were - were all connected; I mean when I say that we leave one place and were going to be somewhere else when we arrive, you know when you leave on an aeroplane and you get somewhere else, its almost not real. You know when you look at a globe and you see that you just go across there and its the next place, and actually theyre our neighbours across that ocean, but you dont - its an abstract concept, but when youve gone across it youre really aware of that. And so, you watch all the plastic bags you know, floating on the ocean and you think youre hundreds and hundreds of miles from everywhere, the sense that our environment is everybodys environment, and you know that the environment is something that we all have to care for because its so small and its for all of us. So I was really aware of the connection between places that seem removed culturally or geographically or somewhere. Ian Wallace: Might as well put a cup of tea on, I think. Mari Rhydwen: One of the things about being at sea which I both loved and which was also I suppose tiring in some ways, is that you always have to be alert. Even at the times when you think youre most secure, you just have to notice that the sound has changed, the sound of the waves slapping the side of the boat is slightly different; or something alerts you, and it would be good to maintain that alertness. I mean I always told myself thats the way to be. Its harder on land. Kerry Stewart: Can you relate your Buddhist practice then to that experience of being constantly alert? Birds calling.... Mari Rhydwen: Theyre calling us to alertness arent they? Well of course this is the central practice of Buddhism, is to maintain awareness, you know, attention, attention, attention. Ian Wallace: My names Ian. Im presently sailing very gently on my 30 foot Griffin Whirlwind which is a 45-year-old wooden vessel, single mast, but I usually race on a historic 18-foot skiff, part of the Australian Historical Sailing Skiff Association. 18-foot sailing comes from a huge tradition going back to the late parts of the 19th century and the early parts of the 20th century up till the Second World War years and then on from that. So were keeping that tradition alive and singing the songs of the sea too. There are a great lot of songs, and quite bawdy, some of them, but quite respectful of God and the ocean on the other hand because their life depended on that for their survival. IAN SINGS ` Haul away Joe Mari Rhydwen: When people asked me if I was ever scared when I was sailing and those people thought that I might be frightened of pirates or something, but the thing that was always frightening was the weather. I mean that was the thing that caused me to be more frightened than anything else that happened. And when the weather was bad at sea, you do sort of prepare for anything, I mean you know, you could die. Actually before I went, before I went away to sea I remember an old friend of mine meeting me in the supermarket and saying `Are you prepared to die? Rising to the challenge, I said, `Yes, but you know, I dont know how prepared I really was. SINGING Ian Wallace: Most of the men who were press-ganged onto sailing ships or happened to be drunk in pubs around the waterfront, maybe you couldnt describe them as being a religious type of person, but they certainly knew that if they were in the middle of an ocean in a raging storm, I imagine that they would be calling for help from whatever quarters they could. Certainly theres lots of traditions about the sea and about not tempting fate too much by painting the wrong colour on a vessel, or doing the wrong thing on a vessel that would give you bad luck. We need some breeze. Hughie, we need some breeze. Praying to the god Hughie, has various positive effects mostly, you hear sailors all around the world crying to wind gods of course. Hughie seems to be the local wind god around Sydney. Better loosen this off a little, run a bit freer. Thats better. Kerry Stewart: A slow day today. Ian Wallace: Its nice, a nice change from the hecticness of some days. Kerry Stewart: Youre with Encounter on ABC Radio National and sailing into more dangerous water now with the Navy. Bosuns whistle/Eternal Father Kerry Stewart: Over the last few decades, the face of the Australian military forces and particularly the Navy, has changed dramatically. These days theres a steady flow of Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and Buddhists joining up, reflecting the multicultural and multi-faith fabric of Australian society. ABBM Pendergast: Gangway! Kerry Stewart: Leading Seaman Bryan Alexander is Roman Catholic and Seaman Mostafa Eshan is Muslim, so when theyre on board their ship, HMAS Kanimbla, how do they practice their religions? Bryan Alexander: We have random days where we have a service, usually on a Sunday or sometimes we have a sunset service which is really nice, and then mostly in my spare time before going to bed I usually pray. Kerry Stewart: And as a Muslim, Mostafa, how do you practice your religion? Mostafa Eshan: Theres a forad ships mess on the ship where the troops embarked and at the moment its empty, and most of the time it is, and yes, I just go there, I got permission from the C.O. Kerry Stewart: And so do you pray five times a day? Mostafa Eshan: Most of the time, yes I do. I get time off from work and just go down and pray. And Navy-wise, I dont feel like left out, I get time to pray, I get special meals, which is great, and thats what I wanted, so theres no major conflicts between my religion and Navy, no. Kerry Stewart: Do you go to the Christian chaplains for spiritual help? Mostafa Eshan: I havent been down there. Ive got some books that I read up on, in my spare time. But usually when I get off the ship I go to mosque which is close by. Garry Lock: Im Gary Lock, Im the Fleet Command Chaplain for the Navy, and were sitting in the Navy Chapel at Garden Island in Sydney. This chapel is coming up for 100 years old. When the ships all had sailors living on board, they would be marched up here years and years ago to come to church every Sunday. That stopped some time ago now. Today most sailors or everybody lives at home, and they just come to and from work to their ships so if people, if they want to go to church, go to their local church. Now the chapels mainly used for memorial services and weddings and funerals and infant baptisms or christenings or dedications. Kerry Stewart: What denominations are the Navy chaplains? And are they only Christians? Garry Lock: Only Christian at the moment. We have a Jewish reserve army chaplain who looks after Jewish requirements across the defence force. So within the Christian community we have Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant denominations. So you have to have 150 people of your particular faith group for you to qualify for a chaplain. And so once those numbers happen, thats available. In the meantime, for people from non-Christian faith groups, its our job to make sure that their needs are met, and if we needed to go and see their Commanding Officer or organise for them to visit a temple of a mosque or anything like that, or put them in touch with their particular faith community wherever that happens to be, well make sure that happens. And Ive done that in the past, so its always really rewarding to do that because they appreciate that, that weve looked after them. Kerry Stewart: Do you think over the last couple of years, theres been a change in culture in the Navy regarding people with different religions? Garry Lock: I dont think so. I think people have been accepted for who they are for a long time. I think were more perhaps aware recently than we may have been in the past. But yes, its a newer thing to have a Muslim or a Sikh in our Navy, and its a good thing. Its starting to reflect more and more the Australian multicultural society that we live in. Kerry Stewart: Do you see your job as being evangelistic in any way? Garry Lock: No, not in the sense of proselytising, I see it as being evangelistic in the broad sense of the word, in that I represent the Christian faith wherever I go in the organisation. But not that Im looking for converts. Im not sure how some of my Baptist brothers and sisters out in the wide world would see that, but I think most of them would fit with that. Kerry Stewart: Theres a traditional Navy pennant that was flown in wartime that declared to the enemy that prayers are being said and that the `ship should not be attacked. I dont know how effective that would have been, but it brings up the question of conflict for sailors between their religious teachings of compassion and peace and what is expected in a battle. Bryan Alexander: Ive always had trouble with weapons. Thats why I joined as a marine technician. I would be down in the hull making sure everything is running to get the people where theyre going. But I personally dont believe in killing others, and when you come to the test the P.O. taking the course said `Right, youll be first on my team. I said, `But I dont like the weapons. He said, `Thats why I want you on my team because you will only use as a last resort rather than shoot first ask questions later. So weapons was always a problem for me, but Im still here. Mostafa Eshan: Of course theres a problem. I wouldnt kill someone, if I dont have to, but then again, if it was saving my life, yes. Kerry Stewart: So, in defence? Mostafa Eshan: In defence, yes. Kerry Stewart: In the Navy, death is ever present, through misadventure or accident, during a battle, or in the case of suicide. Leading Seaman Bryan Alexander again. Bryan Alexander: We had an incident where we lost some crew. It was a helicopter incident. You do fear the unknown and it did affect a lot of sailors in different ways, because it was actually army that we did lose, but this ship being what it is, we work with the army a hell of a lot, and we actually sit down with the junior ranking army, and I actually knew the person fairly well, and it was traumatic at the time, but the support on this ship was very good. Kerry Stewart: Have you encountered a critical incident? Garry Lock: I think all of us do over time. It could be anything from a major incident like when the Sea King crashed on the island of Nias a few years ago, where we had a Chaplain on board the ship there, or when I was at sea the `Westralia fire occurred and four of our sailors died on board that ship, and I was on board `Success at the time, so I was engaged with that event. The military operates in quite a dangerous environment, so were always sort of hoping that nothing happens, but sometimes it does and if it does, we hope were ready for it and we do the training and the preparation so that were good to go when we need to. Its very much a team effort. The psychologists, the social workers, the chaplains the doctors, we all sort of talk together and work together. Its our job also to go with the Commanding Officer or a Lieutenant Commander and above to notify anybody if somebodys died or been seriously injured. We have to go and notify their family, and when we get the phone call in the middle of the night that some major incidents occurred, or that somebodys died, and weve got to go out and tell their Mum and Dad, husband, wife, children, whats happened. Thats pretty intense, and can be extremely difficult. The other side of it is that the families who we do go and tell this awful news to are unbelievably grateful that weve done it, whatever time of the day or night it is that weve gone and knocked on their door and stood there and spoken to them and spent time with them and helped them through that initial shock. Kerry Stewart: And part of your special training as an officer and chaplain is suicide prevention? Garry Lock: Yes, we do suicide intervention training, called Assist, we do a lot of specialised training for us. We also work with the psychologists in that and we train other people in suicide intervention as well. Kerry Stewart: As being part of the military, death is present and as you said its a very dangerous job, and so have you thought about your own death in these circumstances? Garry Lock: Yes, we all do. I think possibly in ministry you tend to think about it a little bit more than you would in a normal job because we confront people whove died all through our ministry. This job confronts us with a different type of dying, and they are young people that were working with so it seems to have a more poignant edge to it, than someone whos lived a good life and they died of natural causes in their old age, and were dealing with that as a pastor in the church. This is different. Kerry Stewart: What do you say at a funeral service for one of these young people? Garry Lock: Oh, what do you say? Theres not much you can say. We just offer them whatever support we can. Theres not much to say that this is a great event. No, I dont think so. This is a tragedy, thats all I say. This is a tragedy, this is a life thats cut short and for me anyway the thing that I say is that whatevers happened, God is with you through this and that may be in all sorts of different ways, it may be represented by a friend or a family member or a pastor or chaplain who is there for you. BELL Mari Rhydwen: Theres a sort of loneliness to being at sea and a certain loneliness of going into a Buddhist retreat. But when I say `loneliness, and its that loneliness in both cases, its not a sad loneliness, its not feeling lonely in the way of the lonely hearts club: `Im lonely, I want somebody to talk to, its a loneliness that is a being alone, which is a really clear recognition that each one of us actually is truly alone, and at the same time that we are not separate. I mean I suppose this comes from a Buddhist practice over years, you know, I mean when you take something like the Buddhas words, you know: "Above the heavens, below the heavens, I alone am holy". That can sound to an outsider as if its some sort of claim to a sort of importance or a dominance or a separation, or something, whereas what its claiming is a kind of unity that we all experience. Kerry Stewart: Sailors often talk about a sense of freedom they feel when they move from enclosed waters through the Heads and into the open ocean. But whats it like when you live in a land-locked country thats in turmoil, and the only way to freedom is across an unimaginable sea? Chaman Shah Nasiri. Chaman Shah Nasiri: Im one of the Afghan Hazara refugee living here who fled Afghanistan because of the persecution that we had in our country on the basis of being Hazara as a tribe and as well as being Shia which is a minority sect of Islam in Afghanistan and we have been persecuted in Afghanistan for the last hundreds of years and recently people are aware of the Taliban regime that we had in Afghanistan. When I was 19 years old like it was the time of the Taliban, my family decided to send me out of the country because at that time, the Taliban they were recruiting the young people to force them to fight and so I was the youngest of my family, so they sent me out and it cost them $US4,000 and for our family, which is a normal family and we didnt have our own land, so they collected and whatever they had they sell a piece of land and the shop that we had, so they were able to send me out. So I came from Afghanistan to Pakistan, then from there we came to Singapore then we were sent to Indonesia, then I stayed there about 3-1/2, 4 months or something, then from there we were sent by a small boat to Christmas Island. Kerry Stewart: Did you have any imagination of what the ocean was like? What did you think about this journey as a young man? Chaman Shah Nasiri: I didnt have any idea, because in a place where I have lived, we dont have ocean, and I havent seen it, and so it was far beyond my imagination because I couldnt think of something like that. Maybe I have heard of that, but I didnt know what the life would be, and what the experience in a boat would be. Some people might have a bad image of people smugglers, but for someone who is a refugee someone who doesnt have a legal document, someone whose country doesnt provide protection to them and doesnt have that facility to allow them to go to other countries, so the people smugglers, they actually were a hope and the sea, which was the only way for us, so there was a big hope and a freedom for us. Mari Rhydwen: The whole business with the Tampa which happened when we were at sea, actually, was I think one of the most painful experiences in that the Captain was forced to not do what any seafarer would do for any other seafarer. And that seems like a crime against humanity to me, because I mean its nothing to do with religion, its nothing to do with a belief, its nothing to do with anything. The reality is that when youre out there, youre alone, and everyone else out there is alone too, and when you come across someone else, you look after them, because you want to. Kerry Stewart: Have you ever come across boats where you had to assist like refugee boats? Garry Lock: I havent. Other Chaplains certainly have, but I havent. So weve had Chaplains at sea during the Tampa crisis, one of our Chaplains was on board one of the ships that had to deal with all of that and with the children overboard thing, we had a Chaplain on board for that. So other Chaplains have had to deal with that; I personally havent. Kerry Stewart: If you came across, if the ship came across a refugee boat, what would you be advising? Garry Lock: I think my advice to any Commanding Officer although you dont need to do this because they know it, they are pretty wise people, is that all people should be treated humanely. And theres the rules of sea that says if any ships in trouble its our duty to make sure that those people are rescued and looked after. Thats just an extension of the normal hospitality that we would provide to anybody, and my Christian understanding of that, and I think that just applies to us all. Hopefully someone will look after us if something bad happens to us sometime. So, its a mutual concern for other seafarers. Chaman Shah Nasiri: We were sent to this boat and we were nearly about more than 220 or something people, people from Afghanistan, people from Sri Lanka, people from Pakistan, and Turkish people. So mostly Afghans. So the first day of our journey was well and everyone was living there properly - I mean when Im saying we were kept there like sheep over one another, but it was OK, like there was no problem at all. So when the night came the rain started and we had a storm in the sea, and everyone was thinking that this is the last minute that theyre going to live, and everyone was thinking that we all will go and slide into the water and my friends, that they were trembling and shaking and asking us to help, and most of the people were praying to God that God, please make this boat a Noahs Ark, please show us your miracle. And you could see at that time there was no one except God to listen to you, if you believe in God. And everyone was thinking that this is the last minute, whatever they had they were thinking of their family and myself was thinking that I have got all this $US4,000 with me and Im not getting anywhere. So Ive wasted this money, I mean the whole family, they have taken the food off their children to save me, and now Im dying. Kerry Stewart: You made it through the storm obviously, and did everyone else on the boat make it through the storm? Chaman Shah Nasiri: Yes they did actually, they did, but we had a bit of a problem with the engine of the boat because of the water and as well there was a hole in the boat so we did make it, and it took us like about three days, more than three days something, to get to Christmas Island. So we were very close to Christmas Island when the Navy personnel they came and intercepted the boat and as I said before, the engine of our boat failed. So they were trying to - this was their plan, we didnt know that, they were trying to fix the engine and they were also trying to send us back to Indonesia, and we were kept there for two weeks and they said We will help you to get to the international waters and from there on you can go to Indonesia on your own boat. I dont know how many hours we went far from Christmas Island then the water started coming in to the boat, and the condition of the water ahead was not suitable for the boat that we had to go there, it could sink. So they actually decided to bring us back. Garry Lock: I love the story of Elijah and the still small voice, and the God of the Desert who comes to him, standing outside his cave and theres this thin silence of the desert. And when you stand in the desert environment in one of my parishes, the churches that I was in was up in the north-west of Victoria and I used to love going out into the silence of the Mallee scrub and the desert, and that text became very real to me at that point. And I use that quite a bit as well, so theres God of the Deep and theres God of the Desert, two images that I hold in tension. Kerry Stewart: So do you see the ocean like the desert? Garry Lock: Yes, its very similar to a desert. Its a vast, silent, space and it can become a very dangerous place. I think the two things are linked and the two of them are the strongest images of God that I know about. Kerry Stewart: Can you just describe how your life has been changed by this journey over the ocean? Chaman Shah Nasiri: Actually it taught me a lot of things. At that time when we had a trouble of rain and storm and people were crying out for help and God did help them, that was sort of like a life-changing time, that was a time that we actually, I mean if I say reincarnation, we brought up into a new life again that we were thinking were going to die. And so that was a lot of hope for us. And I carried that hope further in my life, even when I was in the detention centre when I was living hopelessly in a camp where I didnt know if the Australian government was going to accept us or not. So there was a big hope. Ian Wallace: Are sailors different from landlubbers? Id say they are because they know how to flow, you know theres a sort of a sense that you get from nature which is not mechanical, its not staccato, yes, nature for me inspires a mellowness and a flow and in a sense the flow of water and flow of air, I mean they can be quite drastic at times too, but their more gentle conditions, are very soothing to the soul, and thats the joy of it too, to realise that nature is full of a sense of real majesty in the flow of life and thats what you get from the elements, or thats what I get from the elements. Mari Rhydwen: Part of what I miss about being at sea, you know, is not very different from what I could have on land. If we could have that connection with land. I mean when youre at sea, youre so far away from civilisation, or what we call civilisation, from human intervention I suppose is what I mean, when youre out in the ocean youre there with the things that normally live in the ocean and on the whole you dont disturb them and they dont disturb you. And I miss that. And I miss being aware of whats happening with the weather all the time, with the moon all the time, and I dont know why, because in an abstract sense, I mean I could go out and see what the moons doing each night, but its the fact that its so much part of your life, so that you could never not know what they were doing. And it seems to me to connect us to all human beings whove ever lived, and who do ever live and who will ever live. This is the human experience to experience the moon and the stars at night and the clouds and the weather. Whatever changes culturally, there are some things that never change. Ian Wallace: Just about to jibe, its going to be a hectic one. Oh, here it goes. Got the wind dead behind us, running goose winged, or angel winged, as I hear some of the Scandinavian folk call it. Kerry Stewart: As we have the wind behind us, its time to sail to the Encounter mooring on ABC Radio National. Technical production today was by Judy Rapley. My thanks to all the seafarers who kept me on course during this journey together. Details about this program, called `God of the Deep are on our website, where youll also find pictures of some of the sailors, their ships and their voyages. Im Kerry Stewart and its been good to have your company.